Joining the electric car club

safrane

Member
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16,933
My diary managers Me had a faulty battery - 3 months to get a new battery...went to collect and it caught fire whilst being driven out of the service centre.

She has now rejected the car...The Ford's must be really bad as most EV do at least appear to last.
 

davy83

Member
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2,836
Friend was in the local Ford dealer in the UK getting his daughters Mustang serviced, it had taken them 8 weeks to get a service slot and when he asked the Service Manager why he said 30% of his workshop is booked up replacing batteries in Mach Es nearly all on warranty.

How can manufacturers or finance companies sustain these costs?
in fairness manufacturers often have to accept teething problems with new technology, to get to a point where things start to work well, and it all makes money, it part and parcel of new technology development. Dyson with the bagless vacuum cleaner had the worst reliability of any cleaner at first but just kept on top of it and worked the marketing until they sorted it all out. It does look like the Germans have done their home work on batteries a bit better than Ford in this instance. It was not that long ago (70's?) that new ICE cars would not start, had pitiful fuel consumption, caught fire, exploded in accidents and often rusted within a few years, these things cost the manufacturers until they sorted it out. EV's are no different, its not the fact it's an EV that's causing these issues its that fact that the technology is new to the manufacturer.
 

philw696

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25,788
To be fair the development works shouldn't have to be done by the customer like Rover did with the K series engine.
I earnt a fortune on those back in the 90's 2000's.
 

Mattmaser

Member
Messages
108
Mrs leased a Corsa E brand new last July as a pool car for her business - it’s managed 1900 miles and been in the dealer no less than 12 times, off road more than on ., with charging issues. Dealership wouldn’t give a courtesy car out, and Vauxhall seemed mostly uninterested in getting to the bottom of the issue.
Formally rejected the car now , see what happens .
 
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21
Friend was in the local Ford dealer in the UK getting his daughters Mustang serviced, it had taken them 8 weeks to get a service slot and when he asked the Service Manager why he said 30% of his workshop is booked up replacing batteries in Mach Es nearly all on warranty.

How can manufacturers or finance companies sustain these costs?

I'm sort of connected to the EV line of business. First off ... the delivery schedules are insanely short ... the car manufacturers are in fear of losing market share, so they decide on launch dates that are tough to achieve.
For these EVs, there an entire supply chain to BUILD. Batteries are made of chemicals, many of them, and they are specialty chemicals, very few companies in the world that know how to make them so they work in the batteries. Because of fast track launch dates, all these chemical plants have to be built in VERY SHORT time frames. Quality control, cost control and schedule control are all challenges, especially when they will pick companies that make all kinds of promises to build on time, on budget, but don't have the capabilities to deliver. So now, everyone is rushed ... and that will inevitably impact quality. In a battery, quality means (1) safety, (2) battery capacity and (3) battery life (or number of charge cycles before the battery is cr@p). Doing things quickly may mean the chemicals going inside the battery are not 100% to spec, or the actually battery cell assembly has defects (remember they make millions of cells PER DAY, and if one tiny thing goes wrong, you compromise the battery).

In the end, simply put, speed to market is being prioritized, and that introduces significant risk of quality issues. That is what you are seeing.
 

Phil H

Member
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4,213
Add to that the fact that cradle to grave lifecycle management is pants, and imho the industry is storing up a whole heap of trouble for the future.
 

safrane

Member
Messages
16,933
Saw a short YouTube film of a faulty Volvo/polstar battery. Was not aware that one faulty cell can cause the car to stop... and these cars have 100s!
 

philw696

Member
Messages
25,788
According to the Telegraph sales are still falling along with prices.
It will be Buy one get one free soon.

Incidentally, anyone notice how we didn't get 11 months of continuous rain when a few more folk were bombing round in V8s.....????
 

lozcb

Member
Messages
12,597
I take a slightly different view, the whole idea of this in the first place we were told was about being green and conserving the planet earth , all engineering technology presents issues when getting into full production mode which is kind of understandable .......and I take Bellino's point , we will over come that eventually when things catch up
What im seeing though, there are new mass manufactures out there with no back up in terms of dealerships ( barring the german market) which will deter purchasers from a larger investment , to sell them they will have to sell them cheap which will have the effect of short term life and usabilty , rather like mobile phones they will become throw away , for several reasons based on cost and spares replacement/lack of garages qualified to do the repair ......................which in turn begs the biggest question of all ..................how green are they compared to a traditional equivalent ICE which can easily be repaired and have an average shelf life of around 40 years if maintained .................One could assume based on current stats that EV battery life is predicted around 10 years .....so like for like you would have 4 EV's to 1 ICE vehicle over a 40 year period ...........in that alone how can that be greener for the planet ................im just a simple kitchen fitter, how high an IQ is needed to not recognise that

Its about time that king put some clothes at long last and put an end to this debacle
 
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davy83

Member
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2,836
I take a slightly different view, the whole idea of this in the first place we were told was about being green and conserving the planet earth , all engineering technology presents issues when getting into full production mode which is kind of understandable .......and I take Bellino's point , we will over come that eventually when things catch up
What im seeing though, there are new mass manufactures out there with no back up in terms of dealerships ( barring the german market) which will deter purchasers from a larger investment , to sell them they will have to sell them cheap which will have the effect of short term life and usabilty , rather like mobile phones they will become throw away , for several reasons based on cost and spares replacement/lack of garages qualified to do the repair ......................which in turn begs the biggest question of all ..................how green are they compared to a traditional equivalent ICE which can easily be repaired and have an average shelf life of around 40 years if maintained .................One could assume based on current stats that EV battery life is predicted around 10 years .....so like for like you would have 4 EV's to 1 ICE vehicle over a 40 year period ...........in that alone how can that be greener for the planet ................im just a simple kitchen fitter, how high an IQ is needed to not recognise that

Its about time that king put some clothes at long last and put an end to this debacle
Except the battery life of 10 years is based on the manufacturers warranty, does that mean because you only get a 3 year warranty on your ICE car it's safe to assume that the engine will need replaced in 3 years? I have just sold a 9 year old BMW i3 and the battery was 97% of original capacity, and possibly never had 100%. I am not convinced this 10 year thing is real. I have a 4 year old EQC now which is all electric and reading up on studies abour how best to charge the batteries and store them and there are studies showing degredation over up to 50 years with different charging strategies, but nothing about self destruct, so sure the capacity will degrade to some extent but they should last. Sure there are photos of EV's on fire and all that but there are ICE cars that go on fire every day, its just no-one cares anymore because there is no axe to grind. I don't see any reason why EV's wont last as long as ICE cars, if they are looked after. I intend to keep the EQC as long as i can its a great car, and there is not much to it either,2 motors, no gearbox, no clutch, hardly use the brakes, not so much to go wrong, so should be easy to maintain.
 

Andyk

Member
Messages
61,433
All I know is there are feck all buyers for them new and second hand. More so second hand. I bet most of the run of the mill electric stuff on the road are company cars. Lotus, Maserati, Jaguar, Volvo and anyone else who are about to stop ICE engine in favour of Electric must be sh1tting themselves. Well they can always turn back on the combustion engine I suppose. No infrastructure, rubbish range, concerns over battery life…Nowt will change. My friend has a Tesla and he had a puncture whilst away from home. Tesla came out and because they are ‘special’ tyres it took 48 hours to get one and get him mobile again. Not against electric but it is only a stop gap and a gap that seems to be getting smaller by the day.
 

lozcb

Member
Messages
12,597
Except the battery life of 10 years is based on the manufacturers warranty, does that mean because you only get a 3 year warranty on your ICE car it's safe to assume that the engine will need replaced in 3 years? I have just sold a 9 year old BMW i3 and the battery was 97% of original capacity, and possibly never had 100%. I am not convinced this 10 year thing is real. I have a 4 year old EQC now which is all electric and reading up on studies abour how best to charge the batteries and store them and there are studies showing degredation over up to 50 years with different charging strategies, but nothing about self destruct, so sure the capacity will degrade to some extent but they should last. Sure there are photos of EV's on fire and all that but there are ICE cars that go on fire every day, its just no-one cares anymore because there is no axe to grind. I don't see any reason why EV's wont last as long as ICE cars, if they are looked after. I intend to keep the EQC as long as i can its a great car, and there is not much to it either,2 motors, no gearbox, no clutch, hardly use the brakes, not so much to go wrong, so should be easy to maintain.
No doubt davy , ive no reason to doubt or challenge what you are saying , they probably have an area of the market to which they can perform admirably , my contention is more about the reasons and IMHO dubious reason they were brought about and sold to the general public in the first place as being green and planet saving , to some it was obvious and now the data is out proves that they are no where near as environmentally friendly as originally claimed , in fact they are more planet damaging than ice vehicles when ALL the build to end of life processes are taken into consideration , then add into the equation the cost of planet degradation caused by all the extra mining involved to supply the copper and plastics that will go into building additional infrastructure to cope with said vehicles.

I have plenty of hats and quite willing to eat one or two should you prove where my thinking is flawed ,