Can I fit a 3200 gearbox to a 4200 Engine ???

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Eddie Walsh

New Member
Messages
19
CatmanV2 said:
Treading carefully I think that's probably true, but I can imagine there might be some gotchas that might, well, get you. ;)

Given the scale of what you're trying to do, I can see you likely to succeed :)

C
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Hi, Yes the major gotchas so far is getting the Torque Tube and prop Shaft shortened I have emailed several Company's and waiting for their replies ? so Thanks for the support, and still waiting for someone to clarify the Clutch conversion from auto to manual ??, Regards DM
 
voicey

voicey

Member
Messages
660
I strongly suspect that the manual shifting mechanism off a 4200 (or even a 360/430) will bolt right on and work out of the box.

For the clutch, you will need the pedal assembly and pipe the master cylinder to clutch block on the side of the bell housing (this is connected to the throwout bearing). You will need a manual bearing as the seals are different (the CC uses a different fluid to control the clutch so brake fluid will nuke the seals in short order). You will be able to lose the clutch position sensor and pressure sensor which will tidy things up.

However, your biggest issue is going to be the motronic (assuming you are using the stock engine control system). Even if you have the injection/ignition harness there is a level of communication between the TCU and ECU - by removing the TCU you will need to spoof the ECU otherwise it will not start. It's not insurmountable but be prepared for a load of grief getting it to work. I spent 20 hours last week trying to get a 430 with a Scuderia gearbox and TCU installed to start - it's no fun...
 
CatmanV2

CatmanV2

Member
Messages
48,720
So glad you weighed in, Voicey. Being one of the few people with experience vs theoretical knowledge :)

C
 
E

Eddie Walsh

New Member
Messages
19
voicey said:
I strongly suspect that the manual shifting mechanism off a 4200 (or even a 360/430) will bolt right on and work out of the box.

For the clutch, you will need the pedal assembly and pipe the master cylinder to clutch block on the side of the bell housing (this is connected to the throwout bearing). You will need a manual bearing as the seals are different (the CC uses a different fluid to control the clutch so brake fluid will nuke the seals in short order). You will be able to lose the clutch position sensor and pressure sensor which will tidy things up.

However, your biggest issue is going to be the motronic (assuming you are using the stock engine control system). Even if you have the injection/ignition harness there is a level of communication between the TCU and ECU - by removing the TCU you will need to spoof the ECU otherwise it will not start. It's not insurmountable but be prepared for a load of grief getting it to work. I spent 20 hours last week trying to get a 430 with a Scuderia gearbox and TCU installed to start - it's no fun...
Click to expand...

Hi Voicey Thanks, yes I am looking for the manual shifter from a 4200, but surely the 360/430 is a completely different system ?? being mid engined cars ??.

What is the clutch Block on the side of the bell housing, the fluid info is just the type of info I need as no experience of these cars so again Thanks, and I can remove all the electrics around the trust bearing and the bearing which I replace with a Manual bearing.

I will not be using the OE Motronic ECU as I will replace with a Megasuirt 3 so will be looking for an Engine wiring diagram ?? if any one has one and any info on what sensors and where they are would also be a great help, so many Thanks for taking the time to help, Regards DM
 
mjheathcote

mjheathcote

Centenary Club
Messages
9,037
Megasquirt, on a Maserati/Ferrari engine, will that be a first?
I think that will be greatest challenge of all...variable cam timing and all...
 
E

Eddie Walsh

New Member
Messages
19
mjheathcote said:
Megasquirt, on a Maserati/Ferrari engine, will that be a first?
I think that will be greatest challenge of all...variable cam timing and all...
Click to expand...

Hi Mj, no I am sure there have been several MS's on some of the older engines like 308's and 400i's, yes on this engine it will be quite a challenge, I should say that is one of my other interests as I build and repair Megasquirts www.megasquirtuk.co.uk so i have a slight advantage, but as you say it will still be a challenge, Regards DM
 
mjheathcote

mjheathcote

Centenary Club
Messages
9,037
Eddie Walsh said:
Hi Mj, no I am sure there have been several MS's on some of the older engines like 308's and 400i's, yes on this engine it will be quite a challenge, I should say that is one of my other interests as I build and repair Megasquirts www.megasquirtuk.co.uk so i have a slight advantage, but as you say it will still be a challenge, Regards DM
Click to expand...

A project I need to finish is fitting my Suzuki GSXR 600 throttle bodies to my original Triumph 3lt V8 engined Stag, that I am considering using Megasquirt for the fuel and ignition...
Already have timing wheel and pickup sensor mounted to lose the distributor and go coil packs, HP fuel system sorted, throttle linkages and ECU left to do!
 

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E

Eddie Walsh

New Member
Messages
19
mjheathcote said:
A project I need to finish is fitting my Suzuki GSXR 600 throttle bodies to my original Triumph 3lt V8 engined Stag, that I am considering using Megasquirt for the fuel and ignition...
Already have timing wheel and pickup sensor mounted to lose the distributor and go coil packs, HP fuel system sorted, throttle linkages and ECU left to do!
Click to expand...

Hi MJ,nice spacers and fuel rails, yes I have also used Bike TB's on the old Vaux Red top engines, and Zetecs, I will be hopefully using the Thriumph trident TB's as they are Aluminum so can be welded to an aly boss for my 4200 engine, what trigger wheel will you be using and are you going to drive the coilpack direct or through the EDIS module, direct is best, but the Module is simpler, Regards DM
 
mjheathcote

mjheathcote

Centenary Club
Messages
9,037
I fitted a 36-1 trigger wheel to the front pulley with ford pickup.
EDIS 8 was considered but I questioned the upper RPM limit it was capable of. The Triumph engine being an OHC design has a normal rev limit of 6,500, and the EDIS module was fitted to lower revving engines. As things have moved on with Megasquirt, as you know, direct drive and even COP are all possible now on the V8.
I have always wondered with the Maserati V8, with a single big throttle body, what the benefits would be going a throttle body per cylinder. ECU control I have always thought being the biggest hurdle more than the mechanical bit, especially with variable cams, drive by wire, gearbox control with the cambiocorsa. But if you are stripping most of that way...
 
voicey

voicey

Member
Messages
660
Eddie Walsh said:
Hi Voicey Thanks, yes I am looking for the manual shifter from a 4200, but surely the 360/430 is a completely different system ?? being mid engined cars ??.

What is the clutch Block on the side of the bell housing, the fluid info is just the type of info I need as no experience of these cars so again Thanks, and I can remove all the electrics around the trust bearing and the bearing which I replace with a Manual bearing.

I will not be using the OE Motronic ECU as I will replace with a Megasuirt 3 so will be looking for an Engine wiring diagram ?? if any one has one and any info on what sensors and where they are would also be a great help, so many Thanks for taking the time to help, Regards DM
Click to expand...

It matters not where the engine is in this case, what is important is the way the gearbox selection/engagement works and in this regard the 360/430 and 4200/QP are almost identical.

I suggest you get an education on how the CC/F1 system works before taking anything apart. I don't mean to be rude, and realise you have no experience with these tipos, but your questions demonstrate a distinct lack of knowledge in this area which could be costly once you start trying to make things work. Taking advice off a bunch of strangers on the internet rarely ends well!

The engine control is an interesting topic and again, I suggest you find out how the motronic is controlling the engine in order to determine if the Megasquirt is even capable of doing the job. The main area of concern should be the continuously variable timing on both the intake and exhaust cams. If you omit this control the variators will remain in their retarded position so you won't make power.

I don't mean to come across negative - you project sounds very interesting and I wish you all the best!
 
E

Eddie Walsh

New Member
Messages
19
mjheathcote said:
I fitted a 36-1 trigger wheel to the front pulley with ford pickup.
EDIS 8 was considered but I questioned the upper RPM limit it was capable of. The Triumph engine being an OHC design has a normal rev limit of 6,500, and the EDIS module was fitted to lower revving engines. As things have moved on with Megasquirt, as you know, direct drive and even COP are all possible now on the V8.
I have always wondered with the Maserati V8, with a single big throttle body, what the benefits would be going a throttle body per cylinder. ECU control I have always thought being the biggest hurdle more than the mechanical bit, especially with variable cams, drive by wire, gearbox control with the cambiocorsa. But if you are stripping most of that way...
Click to expand...

Yes EDIS 8 can handle 9 to 10 RPM no problem.

The main reason I am going with ITB's is looks and sound, well if I cannot have a V12 on Carbs then that is the next best thing, and will also gain at least another 50 BHP and loose some low down torque, and as you say the rest I do not need, Regards DM
 
E

Eddie Walsh

New Member
Messages
19
voicey said:
It matters not where the engine is in this case, what is important is the way the gearbox selection/engagement works and in this regard the 360/430 and 4200/QP are almost identical.

I suggest you get an education on how the CC/F1 system works before taking anything apart. I don't mean to be rude, and realise you have no experience with these tipos, but your questions demonstrate a distinct lack of knowledge in this area which could be costly once you start trying to make things work. Taking advice off a bunch of strangers on the internet rarely ends well!

The engine control is an interesting topic and again, I suggest you find out how the motronic is controlling the engine in order to determine if the Megasquirt is even capable of doing the job. The main area of concern should be the continuously variable timing on both the intake and exhaust cams. If you omit this control the variators will remain in their retarded position so you won't make power.

I don't mean to come across negative - you project sounds very interesting and I wish you all the best!
Click to expand...

Hi Voicey, as for taking advice from strangers on the net ?? isent that what these Forums are for to share our knowledge and help other people, and as I have been working on Ferrari's for nearly 40 years I can tell when someone is BSing me,I am not interested in learning how the CC box works, as i have removed all the Hydraulics/Electronics so will just refit the normal manual gear lever an cables, and again no interest in the Motronic system as I know the MS 3 can do all I want,sequential spark and injection, my engine only has variable inlet cams so I can either have fully variable or just switch them on and off and a set rpm, so anyway Thanks for all you help,
 
Oishi

Oishi

Member
Messages
825
Yes, I know this thread is 3 years old, but wow, what a build....

250gto

250gto build
www.ferrarispares.co.uk
I have to ask Eddie Walsh, how are things going?
To refresh; he is building an all aluminum 250 GTO replica, with 4200 running gear.
 
rs48635

rs48635

Member
Messages
3,181
Intersting. The idea has legs, with many QP going to their grave with subframe issues. Be great to find a home for the engine and gearbox.
 
Scaf

Scaf

Member
Messages
6,551
Sounds like a great project so good luck with the build, would be great if you can get it to come together.
 
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