CAR PARK RIP OFF!

keith

Member
Messages
624
Apologies in advance for a completely unrelated to Maserati topic, but thought it might serve as a warning albeit remote in helping anyone on here, about parking in the retail park in Harlesden N. London.
I visited said car park to buy something that was only available from the branch of Argos at that location.
In addition you have a number of other shops that you would never expect to pay to park outside, Tesco's Burger King even a b***dy Pound shop.
I was parked for 15 minutes visiting Argos and popping into the Tesco to pick up a couple of things.
Now a letter from the scum parking operator - you us £60.00 or £100.00 if you don't pay up in 14 days.
I have never yet been to an open air retail park where you have to pay for parking. Usually it's free to encourage people to use the shops. Clearly this dodgy bunch of pirates thought this will be easy pickings for that very same reason. Of course if you want to be observant there will be signs somewhere, but these people rely on usual behaviour to catch out the ever suffering motorist.
Pity the government don't put as much effort in outlawing this daylight robbery as they do in the crazy obscure crazy legislation that they like to put into force to attack the motorist amongst others.
It's examples like this that at times make me feel like the UK is a dump where law abiding people are easy prey thanks to technology.
As has been said before RANT over, but it would be interesting to know if I'm alone and over reacting.
 

Scaf

Member
Messages
6,512
I feel your pain, but free parking in London would be unusual and workers would soon block the spaces.
I have used the Harlesden Plaza a few times (not sure if that’s the one you refer to) and it is well sign posted.
Personally I think they should operate either free for a certain amount of time or refund at tills.
I got a ticket for staying in a Mac Donald’s at Northolt for too long but it was cancelled once I produced a recent (which I only had as I was claiming on expenses).
 

Vince2

Member
Messages
192
If it's 'private' land, do you have any legal obligation to pay them? ( just don't go there again in case they clamp you!)
 

2b1ask1

Special case
Messages
20,220
They cannot clamp any more. It is illegal to prevent anyone leaving private land. Only DVLA agents can clamp untaxed vehicles if on a public road. Debt collectors can clamp as part of removal of property but not for parking.
 

Hawk13

Member
Messages
1,471
If it's 'private' land, do you have any legal obligation to pay them? ( just don't go there again in case they clamp you!)

Yes, you can argue this if you want.....and I have done so successfully.

They have to demonstrate that they have incurred losses and damages as a result of you using the space. If you can prove you spent money at the site and where there purely for the purposes of shopping, a well crafted letter (plenty of templates on line) MAY get them to back down.
 

2b1ask1

Special case
Messages
20,220
Either do not engage with them at all and just ride out the tide of ever redder letters threatening you with the world's debt but empty threats or go for it fully and fight it all the way. Guaranteed rejection of your first appeal as it is in-house, after that demand a POPLA number if it is a BPA company, or appeal to the IAS if an IPC company, both bodies are 'supposed' to be independent bat as both are set up and funded by their trade bodies they are anything but. Expect any secondary appeal to also be rejected (even if they are clearly in the wrong), the next stage is threats with court but rarely do they get there, finally if it goes to court you will most likely win, this is why the companies rarely go to court as by then it has cost them a lot already and they know they are very likely to loose.

Private parking companies play numbers games very successfully; they know that most people will pay the reduced amount of their speculative invoice (NOT A FINE) for an easy life, then they reject automatically and another raft will pay thinking that they (the registered keeper) must be in the wrong. At this point it has only cost them £2.50 from the DVSA for the keeper details and maybe £1.50 in postage and they have raked in £50-60 on the first sweep, £100-130 on the second from the vast majority of victims. Then you see the numbers game tipping as they incur more cost with every red letter from the bogus collection company they have dreamt up! About the third red letter will offer you a settlement back at the original £50-60 'in good faith' when really they are just trying to salvage their costs to date (and a little lot extra). At this point they know they are on a looser and the only option left to them is threatening court, their costs now sky rocket; they are loosing the numbers game now. At court you will be on about a 90% win rate, they know this and if you win you can also claim costs, you may even be in a position to take them to court over data protection breaches (worth about £500 an infringement).

As I said earlier, sign up to: notomob.co.uk
 

linescanner

Member
Messages
299
I appealed a Parking Eye charge a number of years ago via POPLA, using a generic letter doing the rounds on the internet. It was successful. Drop me PM if you want and I will drag up the letter template I used.
 

lifes2short

Member
Messages
5,821
i just ignore the private land ones and as said above they just write it off, I always pay the local authority ones if I'm at fault as that is a losing battle
 

Scaf

Member
Messages
6,512
I think different companies have different approaches. On my advice my daughter ignored such a parking charge and did not engage with them. It was a battle of wills until the County Court summons (yes a real one) arrived in the post - it cost £160 to settle it and avoid a judgement.
 

Felonious Crud

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
21,013
Here's one that worked for me, albeit a few years ago. Rules may have changed.

Dear Sir/Madam

Re reg number / reference

I am challenging your parking charge notice dated xx xx 20xx on the following grounds. Please respond to each individual point that I state.

  • The vehicle was parked amongst numerous vacant spaces
  • The large sum demanded amounts to a penalty and/or is not an accurate reflection of any loss suffered so it is not a reasonable charge. Your monetary claim is disproportionate, punitive and unjustifiable in total. It may also be an unfair term and therefore in breach of Schedule 2 of the Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. Please provide a breakdown of how your demanded charge is calculated so that I can consider further whether it amounts to a penalty.
  • The contractual breach can have caused no financial loss whatever to you or to the land-owner. If you believe it has caused such a loss please set out the details clearly in your response. If you believe I have committed a trespass please substantiate your consequential actual loss. There were, for example, unoccupied places available for others to park so my presence did not prevent the parking of other cars and their making of payments.
  • Your Civil Parking Notice constitutes an invoice for payment. Accordingly your invoiced charge must include an element of VAT. However, your civil parking notice does not state either a VAT registration number or an invoice reference number and so cannot constitute a lawfully valid demand for payment.
  • Having examined your parking charge notice I believe it is a non compliant demand for payment for the following reasons:
  • Your notice refers in the text to being a PCN / Penalty Charge Notice, this term being attributed to a Penalty Charge Notice issued by a local authourity. It is therefore easily confused with a statutory Penalty Charge Notice. The BPA is clear in its rules that such abbreviations and terms are not permissible.
  • Your notice wrongly requires payment to be made “within” 28 days which is contrary to statutory requirement that provides a period of 28 days from the date of receipt, which in this case was xx xxxx 20xx.
  • The rules of the BPA require you to allow a grace period either to allow a motorist to read the signs and make payment or decide whether parking is permitted, and at the end of a period of paid for time or maximum stay to allow for discrepancies in the time shown on different devices. A reasonable grace period would be 5 minutes but it may be that the owners of this site have instructed you to offer a different grace period. Please advise the actual grace period in operation so that I can assess whether you have acted reasonably.
If this challenge / appeal is rejected, to enable me to prepare a formal appeal to P.O.P.L.A please provide the following documentation:
  • A copy of your contract with the land owner which authorises you to act on their behalf in the management of this car parking area.
  • A copy of the contract which you allege I entered in to when I parked.
  • Photographic evidence of the actual signs in situ, together with identification of the locations around the site where these signs are currently placed. Please also confirm the date when the photographs were taken (if not evident from the photographs themselves) and whether you have made any alterations to the signage since the photograph was taken.
  • A copy of the full terms and conditions for use of the land where I was allegedly parked wrongly.
  • A copy of your certificate of membership of the BPA
  • A copy of your protocol which your enforcement and CCTV operators are required to follow.
  • A copy of your standard appeal procedure and confirm whether or not it complies with the Arbitration Act 1996.
  • Full details of the owner of the parking area (if it is not already stated in the copy contract above) as I wish to send them a copy of my letter to you.
  • A copy of all of the images that you have of my vehicle. I understand that the Data Protection Act entitles me to all of this information.
  • A copy of your protocol for handling personal data such as images of my vehicle. I assume that such data is not disclosed to any third party (other than POPLA in the event of an appeal) but please confirm this.
Please provide this information within 35 days of receipt. If you are unable to provide any of the requested documents please provide a reason for each omission.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours blah blah blah
 
Messages
1,117
Will they, do rhey bother to respond with all those requests? Or do they simoly say they are not obliged to be under such scrutiny and thst they will now litigate?
 

Felonious Crud

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
21,013
Will they, do rhey bother to respond with all those requests? Or do they simoly say they are not obliged to be under such scrutiny and thst they will now litigate?

No, they won't respond to all that crarp. I just got a letter back saying that they had exceptionally decided to waive the fine / invoice.

I have a feeling the rules may have changed, though, so my strategy of giving them so much work that the whole thing is pointless may no longer by viable.
 

keith

Member
Messages
624
I feel your pain, but free parking in London would be unusual and workers would soon block the spaces.
I have used the Harlesden Plaza a few times (not sure if that’s the one you refer to) and it is well sign posted.
Personally I think they should operate either free for a certain amount of time or refund at tills.
I got a ticket for staying in a Mac Donald’s at Northolt for too long but it was cancelled once I produced a recent (which I only had as I was claiming on expenses).

Yes it was Harlesden Plaza and having done a quick Google search many others have fallen in to the same trap.
Felonious crud shows a brilliantly drafted response, and many others have made equally valid points or as can be seen have kindly offered to send me a copy of their responses.
I did try to speak to the company involved, yes naively thinking they may look on the situation with some flexibility, but of course it was a waste of time. At the end of the day they are all about maximizing revenue. The point that a penalty should apply to someone who knowingly and intentionally intends to avoid payment for something, and not as a result of a mistake is irrelevant. They are out to get as much as they can however they can by whatever means whilst staying inside the law.
Of course I could appeal, but as much as it pains me I just paid the penalty. Until as with the clamping companies they are legislated out of business we will have to keep on suffering!!
But as isag thanks for the responses...
 

lifes2short

Member
Messages
5,821
Here's one that worked for me, albeit a few years ago. Rules may have changed.

Dear Sir/Madam

Re reg number / reference

I am challenging your parking charge notice dated xx xx 20xx on the following grounds. Please respond to each individual point that I state.

  • The vehicle was parked amongst numerous vacant spaces
  • The large sum demanded amounts to a penalty and/or is not an accurate reflection of any loss suffered so it is not a reasonable charge. Your monetary claim is disproportionate, punitive and unjustifiable in total. It may also be an unfair term and therefore in breach of Schedule 2 of the Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. Please provide a breakdown of how your demanded charge is calculated so that I can consider further whether it amounts to a penalty.
  • The contractual breach can have caused no financial loss whatever to you or to the land-owner. If you believe it has caused such a loss please set out the details clearly in your response. If you believe I have committed a trespass please substantiate your consequential actual loss. There were, for example, unoccupied places available for others to park so my presence did not prevent the parking of other cars and their making of payments.
  • Your Civil Parking Notice constitutes an invoice for payment. Accordingly your invoiced charge must include an element of VAT. However, your civil parking notice does not state either a VAT registration number or an invoice reference number and so cannot constitute a lawfully valid demand for payment.
  • Having examined your parking charge notice I believe it is a non compliant demand for payment for the following reasons:
  • Your notice refers in the text to being a PCN / Penalty Charge Notice, this term being attributed to a Penalty Charge Notice issued by a local authourity. It is therefore easily confused with a statutory Penalty Charge Notice. The BPA is clear in its rules that such abbreviations and terms are not permissible.
  • Your notice wrongly requires payment to be made “within” 28 days which is contrary to statutory requirement that provides a period of 28 days from the date of receipt, which in this case was xx xxxx 20xx.
  • The rules of the BPA require you to allow a grace period either to allow a motorist to read the signs and make payment or decide whether parking is permitted, and at the end of a period of paid for time or maximum stay to allow for discrepancies in the time shown on different devices. A reasonable grace period would be 5 minutes but it may be that the owners of this site have instructed you to offer a different grace period. Please advise the actual grace period in operation so that I can assess whether you have acted reasonably.
If this challenge / appeal is rejected, to enable me to prepare a formal appeal to P.O.P.L.A please provide the following documentation:
  • A copy of your contract with the land owner which authorises you to act on their behalf in the management of this car parking area.
  • A copy of the contract which you allege I entered in to when I parked.
  • Photographic evidence of the actual signs in situ, together with identification of the locations around the site where these signs are currently placed. Please also confirm the date when the photographs were taken (if not evident from the photographs themselves) and whether you have made any alterations to the signage since the photograph was taken.
  • A copy of the full terms and conditions for use of the land where I was allegedly parked wrongly.
  • A copy of your certificate of membership of the BPA
  • A copy of your protocol which your enforcement and CCTV operators are required to follow.
  • A copy of your standard appeal procedure and confirm whether or not it complies with the Arbitration Act 1996.
  • Full details of the owner of the parking area (if it is not already stated in the copy contract above) as I wish to send them a copy of my letter to you.
  • A copy of all of the images that you have of my vehicle. I understand that the Data Protection Act entitles me to all of this information.
  • A copy of your protocol for handling personal data such as images of my vehicle. I assume that such data is not disclosed to any third party (other than POPLA in the event of an appeal) but please confirm this.
Please provide this information within 35 days of receipt. If you are unable to provide any of the requested documents please provide a reason for each omission.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours blah blah blah

what a great letter, I'm afraid if I wrote to these people it would be very basic and to the point and end in "off"