My 3200 GT hard to start

[davy83]

I can give you the part numbers for the crimp terminals for the mating connector in the car for the pedal sensor, which might be worth changing. It requires a special crimp tool so best done by a wiring place if you can get it done. The standard of the crimping on these connectors is not general very good so could be a problem for sure. There is clearly some rework that has been done at the factory on the two grey wires (grounds) which should be short and go straight to the ECU (just behind the carpet) and not into the wiring loom like all the rest. The original grey wires are normally floating around near the pedal sensor connector. I replaced the contacts in the white connector on the end of the wiring loom in my car a the ground contact was definitely loose. I will try to get some pics if i ever get home.

 

[Contigo]

Hi guys,

Nothing new yet, car is still standing still. For various reasons I'll desist from sharing further information at the present time, but I may be back with more details unless I see results soon.

I think I know the outcome. PM me Alecci.....

 

[hodroyd]

Let's hope you can get this sorted out Alecci..!!

 

[Contigo]

I really feel for him and the world of pain that he is in at the moment. His car has not moved for months and there is a chance of binding brakes etc.... Not good.....

 

[Alecci]

Greetings to the board!

Long time, no see as I usually have to start my posts these days. I have some good news and some bad news... What else?

After receiving a new TB from Bill the car finally worked more or less like normal. It still wouldn't start when letting the start-up diagnostic complete, but if you started straight away it would behave perfectly normal while driving, except from the KEY CODE staying lit.

I spent some dough getting the brakes fixed and then had the car stored since it was already end of the season, and new coolant leak in between the cylinder banks had chosen to materialize. When starting the car up to drive it to the workshop for sorting that coolant problem earlier this month, it had even rectified itself to such a degree that I was able to complete the start-up diagnostic before starting and driving the car, no error lights anywhere in sight!

The car drove perfectly to the workshop, the coolant leakage was fixed and the car drove equally perfect back home from the workshop. Now, those were the good news... On to the bad ones.

The day afterwards I took my father for a spin in the car, and it started to behave weird. All of a sudden, whilst driving, it entered safe mode and would not rev above 3K rpms and nor would the turbochargers produce boost. Worth noting is that no error light came on.

Fortunately we were very close to home (about one mile away), so I drove the car home carefully. Since the car had become increasingly difficult to start power-wise I had the battery disconnected and put to the charge.

After the battery was fully charged, I reconnected it and started the car. No issues, it run perfectly and I thought I'd take it for a test drive. I drove for about 15 minutes, when all of a sudden it once again entered safe mode - without any CEL showing. I very carefully drove the car home and parked it. Seeing how it seemed to fix the issues the last time, I also disconnected the battery and left it like that overnight.

Next day I reconnected the battery and tried to start the car. Turning on the ignition went fine, but when hitting the START position with the key it just "clicked", but wouldn't turn over at all. Fine, I said to myself, as it happens I had a brand new Optima Red Top battery (fully charged and all) standing a few metres away so I installed that one instead. I'm not sure whether you know of these batteries in the UK, but in Sweden they are a top-of-the-line brand.

After installing the new battery, I made another try. It still only "clicked", but this time finally a CEL showed. I hooked up the Unidiag and ran a diagnostic, a single DTC shows up: 0x1225

Now what? Any ideas? I regret to say that I'm seriously considering the purchase of an oversize sledgehammer at this point, and we all know what that means.

Please, any and all assistance would be very much appreciated!

 

[jluis]

Starter motors in these cars are known to be quite crapy.
I have the same hard start problem you had and insisting on cranking the engine to try to get it started resulted in a slow moving starter that I'm sure its now in its way out.

Mind you this is the second starter this car has.
There is an upgrade from bosch that you can buy for little money

This is if course unrelated to the driveability problems you have been experiencing.

P1225 seems to be the code related to throttle body position sensor so you will need to contact bill if he did the refurbishment on yours

 

[Contigo]

I do honestly feel for you mate. Have owned mine 2 year and only now is it becoming the car I wanted and dreamt it to be. I too have had Bills throttlebody and sent it back numerous times but it comes back and is not 100%. I can send you the one Bill did if you want Alecci which didn't throw a CEL but did some weird hanging onto revs. I have since sourced another TB and had 2000 miles of no issues with the TB. Despite telling Bill this he really doesn't seem to believe me that it is problematic when on the car.

Did you have Davy's pedal pot at all?

When you had the problem did you clear the code or was it already stored?

 

[Contigo]

This is the list I had on mine when I first got the car.

Since changing TB and pedal pot all have gone.

 

[Alecci]

Starter motors in these cars are known to be quite crapy.
I have the same hard start problem you had and insisting on cranking the engine to try to get it started resulted in a slow moving starter that I'm sure its now in its way out.

Mind you this is the second starter this car has.
There is an upgrade from bosch that you can buy for little money

This is if course unrelated to the driveability problems you have been experiencing.

P1225 seems to be the code related to throttle body position sensor so you will need to contact bill if he did the refurbishment on yours

Hi Jorge and thank for your input!

I somehow doubt the starter motor is involved, although obviously it cannot be ruled out. I've had a fair share of starter motors failing on me through the years, but nothing like this (works perfectly in the afternoon on day 1 but not at all on the morning of day 2). As I said, I will not rule it out but due to the CEL pointing to the TB I'd probably investigate that one first. In the meantime I guess it wouldn't hurt if you could please supply me with a part number for the Bosch replacement?

I do honestly feel for you mate. Have owned mine 2 year and only now is it becoming the car I wanted and dreamt it to be. I too have had Bills throttlebody and sent it back numerous times but it comes back and is not 100%. I can send you the one Bill did if you want Alecci which didn't throw a CEL but did some weird hanging onto revs. I have since sourced another TB and had 2000 miles of no issues with the TB. Despite telling Bill this he really doesn't seem to believe me that it is problematic when on the car.

Did you have Davy's pedal pot at all?

When you had the problem did you clear the code or was it already stored?

Phil mate, I really appreciate you taking the time to help out! I had a replacement sent to me by Bill in the end, and it worked like a charm until last week - not that I drove the car much in the meantime, but anyway. If you're willing to send over yours for some "trial fitting" I'd be very, very grateful and it goes without saying that I'd naturally reimburse you for the P&P back and forth.

I did but a contactless PP off Davy. When it arrived it wouldn't work at all, when measuring the voltage outputs these were way off. I had the outputs adjusted according to the instructions that went with the PP, but still it would not work. In the end it turned out like this:

1: OEM TB + OEM PP = Car wouldn't even start but starter at least turned over, CEL showed in the dash
2: Contactless TB + Contactless PP = Car would start without CEL, but not rev above idle and CEL would lit the second you even breathed on the accelerator
3: OEM TB + Contactless PP = Car would start with CEL but would not rev over 3000 rpm and no boost
4: Contactless TB + OEM PP = Car would start without CEL and drive fine, only the KEY CODE would lit up

I tried all combinations at least twice and took notes during the attempts.

In the end I obviously went with option no 4, so the contactless PP has just been sitting in my garage ever since. I will make another attempt at installing it tomorrow (and do the pedal/throttle reset), but my hopes are not high that it will make a difference.

At least now the car is sitting on a level floor in a heated garage, as opposed to the last period of standstill when it stood outside during winter in a slight uphill driveway and the brakes seized.

 

[Contigo]

Mate you really have had some ****! I properly feel for you!

PM me your address and I will send you the TB.

There are some very simple tests that can be done to measure voltage at idle and Full throttle which I definitely recommend and also do a throttle reset every time you change the TB or pedal sensor.

I fail to see how any of the combinations can affect each other at all!

Speak soon mate!

 

[Contigo]

Ok reviewing your points on an issue basis, here is my experience on the matter.

1) if you disconnect a pedal pot the car will still start based on a pre programmed ECU parameter. The car will idle at a pre programmed idle speed. This points to the Throttle Body if the car won't start. To prove this I can disconnect my pedal pot and the car will start first turn of the key.
2) makes sense, it seems that the "rework" has fixed the starting issue, the cel could be that the pedal has not been calibrated properly, would be worth measuring voltage at idle/rest to compare.
3) strange one, indicates limp mode which is usually pedal sensor related but without measuring voltages it is impossible to tell.
4) weird, had the same pedal pot on mine with no issues. I would measure it at rest and at full throttle to bake sure you are in the safe limit. 350mv-650mv idle and 3.2v to 3.4V wot.

The key immobilizer thing you mention, have you checked that the RFID chip is in the key you use to start it? Sometimes mine fails to start if I interrupted the diagnostic key on. I have heard that when people change the batteries that they lose the chip and can only open doors manually and start the car sometimes.

I wish you were close as I could nail these issues for you very easily!

 

[Trev Latter]

I think Phil is pretty much on the money. Here's my take on it based on my recent experience.

1: OEM TB + OEM PP = Car wouldn't even start but starter at least turned over, CEL showed in the dash
Points to TB mechanical fault. On mine, the idle position was setting itself incorrectly (closed too much). Manually moving the throttle butterfly after clearing the CEL allowed it to start. The cause of the butterfly "sticking" was debris on the magnet causing it to jam up.

2: Contactless TB + Contactless PP = Car would start without CEL, but not rev above idle and CEL would lit the second you even breathed on the accelerator
Points to PP. A fault here could be down to wiring/calibration. Mine had a bad connection on the PP plug and socket (in addition to a worn PP) resulting in random CELs. Contactless PP and correcting the poor connection sorted mine out.

3: OEM TB + Contactless PP = Car would start with CEL but would not rev over 3000 rpm and no boost
Points to TB as in 1 above.

4: Contactless TB + OEM PP = Car would start without CEL and drive fine, only the KEY CODE would lit up
Can't help with the key code issue, sorry.

I would recheck the PP voltage/calibration and renew the contacts in the car loom socket for the PP.

Hope this helps and good luck with it.

 

[Alecci]

Sorry for the late report about progress (or lack thereof).

I drove to where the car is storaged armed with the contactless PP. Prior to mounting it in the car, I thought I'd give it one last try to start the car. First of all I connected the laptop and cleared all DTCs (only the 0x1225 was showing). After clearing it I turned the on the ignition, and this time no CEL returned! The car still would not start though. I dismounted the Y-shaped inlet hose and had a mate I had with me check movement of the butterfly (ignition on, engine off). It moved ever so freely and, as far as we could determine, according to pedal pressure.

Taking all of this into consideration I opted not to mount the contactless PP. I now suspect the starter instead. The symptoms are the same as before, but without any CEL. here they are broken down in detail:

1: Turn the key to MAR
2: Wait for diagnostic cycle to complete
3: Turn the key to START
4: A single, loud "click" sound is heard (solenoid of starter?)
5: All electrics in the car black out for a second (courtesy lights, dash lights, fan, etc)
6: All electrics come back on

Would anyone disagree with my latest suspicion that it's the starter that may be at fault?

 

[CatmanV2]

....or battery

C

 

[jluis]

If you hear clicking and absolutely no starter turning and your lights still work, then it's not the battery.
The starter has a device that engages the starter gear into the flywheel and the clicking is usualy either the relay or that device pushing the gear but not fully engaging.
If it doesn't engage fully, the starter won't turn.

Usualy hitting it with a metal bar gently allows you to use the starter again but on our cars, the starter is inaccessible.
I would say your starter died.

 

[CatmanV2]

If you hear clicking and absolutely no starter turning and your lights still work, then it's not the battery.

'5: All electrics in the car black out for a second (courtesy lights, dash lights, fan, etc)'

C

 

[jluis]

'5: All electrics in the car black out for a second (courtesy lights, dash lights, fan, etc)'

C

Ouch, missed that one.

 

[CatmanV2]

Ouch, missed that one.

Life's too short to sweat the small stuff

C

 

[Trev Latter]

I'd be getting the battery properly checked and/or replaced with a known good one, even if just for diagnostic purposes. A faulty battery will almost certainly cause some random CELs to show during the self test stage as the whole point of that is to check for correct voltages/sensor readings.

 

[Alecci]

Cheers for the input, appreciated as always.

I'm fairly sure it's not the battery. The battery that sat in the car when the problems started was more or less new (had been in the car for about two weeks). When the car first wouldn't start, it was switched for a brand new battery, and conditions still would not improve. As previously stated, these batteries are both Optima RedTop which is one of the best batteries you could by in Sweden if you leave out the really expensive ones intended for cars with lots of aftermarket ICE installed.

This feels more like all electrics go out because of a short than a poor battery. Could the started be busted in such a way that the solenoid causes a short when trying to start the car?